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Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:11 pm

It seems to be a growing problem in the community that people aren't respecting "the fight" which is the central premise to this game.

People are combat logging and doing other things that aren't good for a private community in the long run. I'd like to focus on these things now because I don't like seeing them in the community. A public server can have them but lets try to keep them in public servers.

Combat Logging is logging out in the middle or directly after engaging a target or being engaged by a target. This is the most severe form of combat logging and has been eased by game mechanics implemented by the Dayz Developers. It has not fixed the problem completely mostly because the problem can only really be solved but the community itself by having respect for itself.

You DO not need to like people in this server but please have respect. People put time into this game and it is frustrating when someone tries to kill you, fails to do so, and then logs off to avoid (maybe not intentionally) being killed themselves.

If you know you have to leave and will only be on the server for a short time then DON'T BOTHER ENGAGING A TARGET. Simple as that.

Prime example I had with a certain someone a moment ago: I was at the NE Airfield with [SH] Owner and we were crawling towards the Eastern Barrack. A sniper who we will call Molerat shot and killed Owner with 1 shot. It was impressive. I knew I was dealing with a skilled sniper. I luckily escaped as he engaged me several times. I take this as a challenge. I was carrying a M1014 so I had to employ guerrilla strategy and spent 10-20 minutes getting to a position where I could flank him. Lost cause: He only came on to check something. Logs out.

This is my point exactly: Combat logging to avoid dying is an extreme case but something just as worse is logging out and not giving the other a fair chance at combat. It is disrespectful to the players and to the owner of this server, Skeeter. I've witnessed this a few times (not from the same guy, this was the first) and it spreads like wildfire. If we have reputable people engaging in this then it becomes the standard.

I hope we all can adopt some better combat ethics around here and keep the community strong and less like a public server inhabited by chimpanzees (No offense chimps).

You can yell, swear, and be a fool (I do all three) but please don't combat log. Engage targets when you are willing to have a firefight to the death or for a good amount of time. You don't have time to do this? Well, MW3 and Counter Strike are a steam purchase away.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Milans on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:23 pm

Wow very well written and put
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  xHGx Reflex on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:28 pm

This is less common but also not truly in the spirit of survival. I have seen people trying to scavenge food in supermarkets so they wont die of hunger, and them someone intentionally drives their vehicle up to the building to exploit the glitch where items disappear in supermarkets. Really? If you want to hunt someone and mess with them, sure, but don't take advantage of glitches.

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  skeeteR on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:39 pm

This will be sticky'd, I could not of put it better. This needed to be said.

Feel free to continue the discussion.

This post couldn't of came at a better time. The reports of combat logging are becoming a regular thing.

In all games, combat logging is the most difficult thing to monitor and enforce. Because I literally have to be watching in most cases.

Some reports can be verified with combining logs. But other times its too hard to pin down. Its never that I dont believe the people making the report. Its just like any other rule that is enforced, it still needs to be proven before I can punish someone.

Thanks Petrov, this was very well written.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:55 pm

skeeteR wrote: Its just like any other rule that is enforced, it still needs to be proven before I can punish someone.

Thanks Petrov, this was very well written.

In some cases the punishment would be very hard to determine. In the case I described above with myself and the sniper...it is not exactly sure if he would have been killed by me. So stripping his gear would be, in my opinion, unfair. Maybe we could replace the head of the player with a chicken for a week?

Also, I will edit it to make it less of a wall of text if it will be stickied. Thank you.

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:01 pm

The issue is especially with snipers, is how is the sniper able to know he's still in an engagement, if someone seemingly flees and leaves his line of sight how is he to know that they're still in the area. In the case you described above I was just over 1000 meters away when I took the shot, you ran north and out of sight, I had logged in just to check my description I was playing with the Squad URL files, I saw a perfectly lined up shot and took it. When I logged out we were probably 1500-2000 meters away (keep in mind dayz makes anything past 1300 pretty much unsee-able (new word)) from each other and I really didn't have the time to sit around pondering whether or not I was still "in combat." With closer encounters 0-500 meters (basic rifle range) it's easier to tell whether or not the opposition intends to fight but with the longer ranges there is no way to tell. Unless someone explicitly says that you're still fighting with them or shots are actively being fired it's unreasonable to accuse people of combat logging just because of how subjective the term combat is.

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:21 pm

[NofW] Scott wrote:The issue is especially with snipers, is how is the sniper able to know he's still in an engagement, if someone seemingly flees and leaves his line of sight how is he to know that they're still in the area. In the case you described above I was just over 1000 meters away when I took the shot, you ran north and out of sight, I had logged in just to check my description I was playing with the Squad URL files, I saw a perfectly lined up shot and took it. When I logged out we were probably 1500-2000 meters away (keep in mind dayz makes anything past 1300 pretty much unsee-able (new word)) from each other and I really didn't have the time to sit around pondering whether or not I was still "in combat." With closer encounters 0-500 meters (basic rifle range) it's easier to tell whether or not the opposition intends to fight but with the longer ranges there is no way to tell. Unless someone explicitly says that you're still fighting with them or shots are actively being fired it's unreasonable to accuse people of combat logging just because of how subjective the term combat is.

Doesn't matter. You engaged in combat and left shortly after. You made the choice you wanted to fight. As you know in this game that when someone doesn't have a vehicle then it is going to take a while for them to retaliate. After getting into cover I went to flank you. I was in combat and I do not need to tell you that I am coming to get you to hinder my advantage. I had a shotgun mind you and I couldn't just sprint at you and pop off a couple shots. I had to make a semi-circle to flank you. By the time I was in position where I thought you shot you were already gone.

Sorry but what you did is something I don't respect in a game like this and many other wouldn't either.

Honestly, you picked the weapon, you picked the place and you knew how much time you had. You made a bad call. I'm not saying it was unfair to shoot at me from 1000 meters. That is the game. I am saying it is unfair that you think it is okay to log out shortly after a gun fight just because your gun lets you shoot from so far away.

NofW seems to think it is above these ethics and numerous complaints have made about other NofW people. I wanted to keep it private but it seems you don't.

You don't have the time to ponder if I am going to attack you? Then don't use a sniper rifle to keep so much fighting distance between us. Your gun choice made me do a specific tactic that I think you are well aware of and you took advantage of that distance and logged out.

Simple as that. I could understand your innocence if you killed both of us. But you didn't. You had two targets (we were in a 20 meter radius visible to you) and you only got one. You are in combat until that 2nd target is no longer a threat. Calling me a bambi and logging out was immature and selfish. Next time dedicate some extra time if you want to start a fight.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Traumahead on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:34 am

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Yellow Eagle on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:20 pm

Sorry but the point of the Game is Survival, Not just PVP. Not everyone wants to engage others, some like to help others as well. I've seen where some servers just become nothing but Bandit Servers. Making it impossible many times for a New player to the game to even play as they get killed on spawning and grieved right out of the game.

The Grand Experiment in DayZ:
I have watched the point of the game evolve to were everyone thinks it's just a PVP game. And new players are taught this is what the game is about so they think it's just all about PVP. In a true apocalyptic way it would be groups of people and some Loners trying to just plain survive and there would be Bandits and Murderers and Thieves. There also would be people trying to keep some sort of humanity alive. This does require other aspects in the game like Trust which is very hard accomplish. We did just this very thing on one of our Servers. It worked and we had a lot of people working together. Took many months to do. And we had Bandits on the Server to. We even made arrests for a day in game time. Very hard to do. As some people just die instead of trying to Survive to fight another day.

New players should have a Chance to at least make it a ways into the game. As they have a hard enough time dealing with the Zed's in the game.

Having been a Admin on several servers and played dozens and dozens of them. Balanced Servers are hard to find. And I do know how hard the Job is that Skeeter is doing and how hard it is to make determinations on what people are doing. So Much Respect goes to Skeeter on this. It's a hard job but someone needs to do it. Though better to have several good Admins of like mind in the game to spread out the job.

On Combat Logging:
Combat Logging is a problem I have seen on multiple servers and is very hard to control. Even the controls for this that have been patched into the game are far from perfect. Like throwing a flare or basically anything in the game puts you into combat mode. This really should have been refined a lot more, but may have caused even more bugs in the game. As ever patch does make more bugs to fix.

On Clans:
Clans can make most any kind of name in the Clan, by the Actions They Do. It takes real Leadership to make a Clan work and good players to make the Leadership work. Have seen many Bandit Clans. Clans need a set of rules to make a good Clan, and this can bring in many players to the Server. yes there is a grape vine within DayZ. How we had so many Friendly's and full time players on the Grand Experiment ( TW/BD Server ) helping each other and helping even the Clan when things would go sour sometimes ( Script kiddies ). We could roll back the Server if it was really messed up. But a lot of times we just all worked together to rebuild.  We did rescues and these were a real blast to do as you really didn't know a lot of times (as with New Players) to the Server who you were helping. This all took Team work. we had a rule that bandits could not destroy camps. They might steal from them. They could Rob a friendly, if a friendly want ti issue combat then they were free to engage and Combat logging was out for them. They took their Chances. We instigated many Rules to the server. especially for Friendly's. Like they had to be on the Team speak and had their Own channels. Groups of friendly's might have their own Channels. Our Team speak was always full.

Server Games:
We had a lot of Fun and even had games that we would set up and play. Bandits and friendly's would team together and work together to accomplish a set goal. These were a lot of fun. We had a White List for Chopper pilots. Bandits didn't like this to much but played anyway and we had small bandit groups that would on occasion work with the Clan. And had Choppers of there own. the server had 450 vehicles on the map at any given time. Bikes and junk vehicles were not used and the Admins would despawn them. You could find the occasional vehicle in 100% condition mainly on the Coast for new players. and the rest had to have some sort of repair.

Working the Server Games:
Server games you came to with nothing as the game team would have tents with the weapons you used and any gear, clothing or what ever in the tents for the players in that game. We had 2 choppers for ferrying from the coast of players who died and two good chopper pilots for this task. Rescue the Hostage was a favorite. The Area where the games were being held was announced server wide so friendly's and other players could still just play on the server and not wander through that area.

In Retrospect of the Game:
This game has so much to give to players, Not just a UT style of Play. That's all PVP is. And thats not about trying to Survive. It's all up to the players in the end and the Server owners on what they want to see happen with their Server or Servers. The TW/ BD Server was shut down when the Owner lost his Job and could not afford to keep it going. He also lost the net for over a month so i couldn't reach him to take it over. Or that Server would Still be going. Here you have the means to keep it going with the donation Button if you can afford it. This helps Skeeter with the Costs.

This did get a little out of context but serves to show a few points about the game. And Combat Logging isn't right have had it happen to me in battles in the past. And that direction of the Server is as much a part of the gamer as it is of the Owner and what they want to see in the Server and it's players.



                                                                     
Ghost What a Face

Just a note:
so you know if some one isn't shooting and doesn't want Combat thats not combat logging. Tonight i was just plain murdered, I did't fire a shot. just let them murder me so i would not be tagged as a combat Logger, and by the way i was checking out the spawn points Skeeter and many of them are looking good and are spawning much better. Wasn't able to get to the main Industrial areas but some of the smaller ones were spawning some parts.

Thank you enjoy your Bandit Server as that is what it has become. from one Admin and Server owner of another game and Admin of a few dayZ servers Good Luck. hey I made it 9 days.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  [RDogs] Mr. Blonde on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:33 pm

I'm seeing some good ideas from Ghost there... I second all of that. Games would be fun if not too much work.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  [RDogs] Mr. Blonde on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:36 pm

And btw, mr red does not combat log like he was accused of if any of you saw that. That was a sore loser talking. He did log out but that was before any combat he was in and it was to deal with someone at the door. There were 4 of us at Zelengorsk so get your facts straight nofw before throwing accusations
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:04 am

[RDogs] Mr. Blonde wrote:And btw, mr red does not combat log like he was accused of if any of you saw that. That was a sore loser talking. He did log out but that was before any combat he was in and it was to deal with someone at the door. There were 4 of us at Zelengorsk so get your facts straight nofw before throwing accusations

Mr. Blonde, Mr. RED logged out when I was 5-6 meters away (Almost within hatchet range) from him with an M4 whilst passed out. He did so again after passing out a second time when zeds were clearly about to kill him. Please apply the appropriate label to these actions as I seem to be gravely mistaken by dubbing it "Combat Logging." I look forward to hearing your term for what he did.

Sincerely,
Scott

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:30 am

Logging out even after initiating combat with another player ( killing them or making them pass out) is considered combat logging. It prevents their other teammates in the area to retaliate.

If you want to log out then leave the area of conflict first. At least at that point you can you "escaped".

Logging out because you have to answer the door (during a conflict) is unfair. You should go prone and try to hide. If we allow someone to log out because someone knocks on the door then I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of "oh hey someones at the door brb" after you shoot at someone.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  skeeteR on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:01 am

Yellow Eagle wrote:
and by the way i was checking out the spawn points Skeeter and many of them are looking good and are spawning much better. Wasn't able to get to the main Industrial areas but some of the smaller ones were spawning some parts.

thanks for the feedback. I was curious if it was better Smile

Yellow Eagle wrote:
Thank you enjoy your Bandit Server as that is what it has become. from one Admin and Server owner of another game and Admin of a few dayZ servers Good Luck. hey I made it 9 days.

not sure what this means  Suspect    Bandit server, ice cream social server, w/e.  Its just a place to play dayz.  

Yellow Eagle wrote:
Though better to have several good Admins of like mind in the game to spread out the job

that is what makes The Hunters Den VERY DIFFERENT from all the other dayz servers.  We dont have a bunch of admins playing ingame.  Its something I totally disagree with.  When it comes to dayz you can be an admin or you can be a player.  You cannot be both, and never both @ the same time.  Its wrong on so many levels.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:06 am

Petrov! wrote:Logging out even after initiating combat with another player ( killing them or making them pass out) is considered combat logging. It prevents their other teammates in the area to retaliate.

If you want to log out then leave the area of conflict first. At least at that point you can you "escaped".

Logging out because you have to answer the door (during a conflict) is unfair. You should go prone and try to hide. If we allow someone to log out because someone knocks on the door then I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of "oh hey someones at the door brb" after you shoot at someone.

If you're unconscious then go answer the door not like your toon is going anywhere.

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:44 am

[NofW] Scott wrote:
Petrov! wrote:Logging out even after initiating combat with another player ( killing them or making them pass out) is considered combat logging. It prevents their other teammates in the area to retaliate.

If you want to log out then leave the area of conflict first. At least at that point you can you "escaped".

Logging out because you have to answer the door (during a conflict) is unfair. You should go prone and try to hide. If we allow someone to log out because someone knocks on the door then I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of "oh hey someones at the door brb" after you shoot at someone.

If you're unconscious then go answer the door not like your toon is going anywhere.

He was unconscious too? Maybe he thought he was dead.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:25 am

Petrov! wrote:
[NofW] Scott wrote:
Petrov! wrote:Logging out even after initiating combat with another player ( killing them or making them pass out) is considered combat logging. It prevents their other teammates in the area to retaliate.

If you want to log out then leave the area of conflict first. At least at that point you can you "escaped".

Logging out because you have to answer the door (during a conflict) is unfair. You should go prone and try to hide. If we allow someone to log out because someone knocks on the door then I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of "oh hey someones at the door brb" after you shoot at someone.

If you're unconscious then go answer the door not like your toon is going anywhere.

He was unconscious too? Maybe he thought he was dead.
He logged back in and shot me then relogged to get rid of the zeds eating him while he was passed out again.

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  [RDogs] Mr. Blonde on Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:47 am

I'm not sure about his interactions with you Scott... You may be right, but then again you weren't the one blasting him in side chat. I was referring to the scuffle with sarcany, or whatever his tag is. When the initial combat was engaged by Pink, myself and Red were at least 2500m away, on foot mind you, running to help out our two other players since our only strength is in numbers. From what I can remember, the door incident happened before he even arrived. You'd have to ask him about the other stuff, but I do remember that he died a minute or two after he got sarcany. I do agree with you that it shouldn't be happening and I'm sure if that's how it happened it was a bad habit picked up from the public servers we used to play on. You all are a lot more experienced and we are still learning the ethics and norms for an actual permanent server, so bare with us. He hasn't been on this forum so I'll let him know to die with dignity from now on Smile
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Petrov! on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:01 pm

[RDogs] Mr. Blonde wrote:I'm not sure about his interactions with you Scott... You may be right, but then again you weren't the one blasting him in side chat. I was referring to the scuffle with sarcany, or whatever his tag is. When the initial combat was engaged by Pink, myself and Red were at least 2500m away, on foot mind you, running to help out our two other players since our only strength is in numbers. From what I can remember, the door incident happened before he even arrived. You'd have to ask him about the other stuff, but I do remember that he died a minute or two after he got sarcany. I do agree with you that it shouldn't be happening and I'm sure if that's how it happened it was a bad habit picked up from the public servers we used to play on. You all are a lot more experienced and we are still learning the ethics and norms for an actual permanent server, so bare with us. He hasn't been on this forum so I'll let him know to die with dignity from now on Smile

scott is sparcany
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:48 pm

Petrov! wrote:
[RDogs] Mr. Blonde wrote:I'm not sure about his interactions with you Scott... You may be right, but then again you weren't the one blasting him in side chat. I was referring to the scuffle with sarcany, or whatever his tag is. When the initial combat was engaged by Pink, myself and Red were at least 2500m away, on foot mind you, running to help out our two other players since our only strength is in numbers. From what I can remember, the door incident happened before he even arrived. You'd have to ask him about the other stuff, but I do remember that he died a minute or two after he got sarcany. I do agree with you that it shouldn't be happening and I'm sure if that's how it happened it was a bad habit picked up from the public servers we used to play on. You all are a lot more experienced and we are still learning the ethics and norms for an actual permanent server, so bare with us. He hasn't been on this forum so I'll let him know to die with dignity from now on Smile

scott is sparcany

Or is Sparcany Scott?

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  [RDogs] Mr. Blonde on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:31 am

Well shit. I give up then. Moral of the story: don't let real life get in the way of the game. Noted.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Traumahead on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:38 pm

[NofW] Scott wrote:
Petrov! wrote:
[RDogs] Mr. Blonde wrote:I'm not sure about his interactions with you Scott... You may be right, but then again you weren't the one blasting him in side chat. I was referring to the scuffle with sarcany, or whatever his tag is. When the initial combat was engaged by Pink, myself and Red were at least 2500m away, on foot mind you, running to help out our two other players since our only strength is in numbers. From what I can remember, the door incident happened before he even arrived. You'd have to ask him about the other stuff, but I do remember that he died a minute or two after he got sarcany. I do agree with you that it shouldn't be happening and I'm sure if that's how it happened it was a bad habit picked up from the public servers we used to play on. You all are a lot more experienced and we are still learning the ethics and norms for an actual permanent server, so bare with us. He hasn't been on this forum so I'll let him know to die with dignity from now on Smile

scott is sparcany

Or is Sparcany Scott?

You're missing a comma.
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:24 pm

Traumahead wrote:
[NofW] Scott wrote:
Petrov! wrote:
[RDogs] Mr. Blonde wrote:I'm not sure about his interactions with you Scott... You may be right, but then again you weren't the one blasting him in side chat. I was referring to the scuffle with sarcany, or whatever his tag is. When the initial combat was engaged by Pink, myself and Red were at least 2500m away, on foot mind you, running to help out our two other players since our only strength is in numbers. From what I can remember, the door incident happened before he even arrived. You'd have to ask him about the other stuff, but I do remember that he died a minute or two after he got sarcany. I do agree with you that it shouldn't be happening and I'm sure if that's how it happened it was a bad habit picked up from the public servers we used to play on. You all are a lot more experienced and we are still learning the ethics and norms for an actual permanent server, so bare with us. He hasn't been on this forum so I'll let him know to die with dignity from now on Smile

scott is sparcany

Or is Sparcany Scott?

You're missing a comma.
Or is the comma missing me?

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  skeeteR on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:56 pm

commas are dangerous

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Re: Combat "Ethics"

Post  Scott [TLE] on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:24 pm

skeeteR wrote:commas are dangerous


Fuck commas I'm an adult I do what I want.

Scott [TLE]
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Re: Combat "Ethics"

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